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Worst of the Worst - Follow-Up
2008-09-08 09:41:58

Received the following letter from an uberfan who asks that his name be withheld in response to yesterday's post:

>Well, I think you're being a bit disingenuous in ignoring the fact that Loeb is a favorite of the top artists in the industry, mainly because he, as I'm given to understand, defers to their interests more often than not. I'm not buying Hulk, but I have read friends' copies, and I f ind it terribly written, yes. Issue #5 really sticks in the craw. Why? Not because Rulk beats Thor so easily; rather, it's done in a way that makes Thor look very stupid. It's hard not to read into this Loeb flipping the bird to Joe Straczynski over the latter's complaints that Heroes was stealing his ideas. I find it pretty disheartening that it sells, even with a powerhouse like McGuinness drawing. It's very condescending as well. The reveal that the Abomination was shot is presented as a huge reveal- "Since when does the HULK use a GUN?" I'm sure Loeb would defend this as "Being true" to the character as 'ol Stan and Jack, but, uh, last time we saw the Hulk, he was using starships, axes, swords, lasers, and a ******* army!

And then there's Wolverine: Evolution, which contains an origin and setup for Wolverine so bizarre, so convoluted, so... half-formed, that even Daniel Way seems to be wanting to ignore it aside from the Romulus character, even though he's writing a book called Wolverine Origins.

But it's still at the top of the sales charts. Ultimates isn't as bad, mainly because, well, it's so very much out of control that there's got to be some twist in issue #5 or Ultimatum that explains it. You're also missing the fact that Madureira has been missed by fans for seven years. Or as I said at the Marvel Your Universe panel in Philly, "If Joe took a dump in a bag, and drew it, it would sell; that's how much people want to see his art." < br>
I'd like to think people are buying these just for the art. If not, then... I don't know what to tell you, Tom.

I also wouldn't put Amazing #545 on any worst list. I don't LOVE it, but I don't totally dislike it, either. It's not even the worst Spider-Man book in the past few years; that's kind of a three way tie between "Back in BLack", "The Other", and "Sins Past". In fact, I feel that if OMD "destroys" any character like fans have been claiming, it's IRON MAN, for reasons I don't think need going into.

I think Bendis' run on New Avengers, since the second arc ("Breakout" remains pretty awesome), has been largely horrible, filled with cliffhangers to nowhere that either set up secret invasion or other series. In fact, I'm rather annoyed with the fact that now with SI I'm supposed to forgive all those stories since it was all a payoff for SI, which has become a magical plot hole plugger. That said, the Mighty Avengers issues since Koi Pham took over have been very sharp and amusing.

If I had to pick a "Worst Marvel Comic Tom Brevoort Ever Edited" it would probably be "The Collective", though. An entire issue of this storyline is Maria Hill being incompetent and the President chewing her out, interespersed with shots of her ass (seriously, it's getting impossible not to read Bendis' gender issues into his work, and his obsession with showing strong women in positions of power as being secretly incompetent, unbearably bitchy, or needing to=2 0be saved by men, or all three). The final chapter of the storyline was so incomprehensible Joe Quesada had to spend time explaining it in New Joe Fridays. And if he needed to do that, then you and Bendis weren't doing your job.

Sometimes I feel Bendis intentionally half-asses it, because of the abuse he's taken from fans in the wake of disassembled. Which he doesn't deserve. But does it inform his work? Could his stories have been better if he wasn't thinking "This will REALLY piss them off!" You tell me.

But Bendis sells. As bad as his stories get, the books sell. And it's not like I think he's a bad writer (as opposed to Loeb), since USM is still consistently good after eight years (!) I just wish he would try a little harder to make his stories consistent and interesting.

But why do that when you can have Stan the Man sneer "Change is GOOD" and be done with it?

As for Geoff Johns, the hatred he's getting lately I think has less to do with the quality of his books, as awful as GL: Secret Origins is (Seriously, who CARES if Hal and Carol ran past each other when they were kids?), Action Comics is still pretty decent, but the fact that the entirety of DC seems to be imitating him, and thus the readership is turning on him. I, personally, think Geoff should spend a year in therapy before being allowed to write another superhero comic, but there is a good writer in him.

What, however, is the one comic I think is t he worst Marvel ever published?

Amazing Spider-Man #430. "Oh," you're thinking, "A Howard Mackie comic. How typical" Yes. BUT. this person says it better than I ever could:

http://www.spiderfan.org/rave/2001/0404.html

Bad comics are one thing; THOSE kind of bad comics are unforgivable.

--NAME WITHHELD>

There are a couple of points here I'd take issue with, and a couple of biases that I think you're showing--but unfortunately, I don't have time tonight to compose a response, so it's going to have to wait until tomorrow.

More later.

Tom B

Yowsers! That's a mouthful. That info about Geoff Johns was a neat bunny trail too.

What do you think, Tom, you going to hire mister Coyle as an assistant editor?

I Believoort.

Posted by kyle-latino on 2008-09-03 22:52:07

I disagree with Dan about Bendis but I agree about Loeb. I'm disappointed that he's got the keys to the ultimate universe and has derailed the hulk. I do like some of Jeph Loeb's collaborations with Tim Sale (Spider-Man: Blue!), but he tends to set up these half-assed mysteries featuring all the characters his artist could want to draw (for flimsy reasons).. And that's why we ended up with garbage like red hulk punching out the watcher.

Posted by tech knight on 2008-09-03 23:21:00

and..do I have to insult to have some kind of an answer ?
that's it...your real motivation onto this job is for being insulted....
you can't just pretend that you ignore what you're doing...

Posted by notapotatoe on 2008-09-04 01:01:07

But isn't playing to an artist's strength a quality of good writers? Isn't that what Neil Gaiman and Alan Moore were doing? Hulk is thoroughly enjoyable, so much so that I can't imagine the state of mind not to have fun with it. It's everything we loved as comics as kids. Not all my comics have to be smart, there's delight to be found in Silver Age or Golden Age stories. Loeb is good enough to think out of the box and if a minority don't get it huge numbers are buying and buying again. It's no coincidence.

Posted by leoparis on 2008-09-04 03:39:26

right!
i completely agree with dan's opinions about Loeb's writing. but i would like to add that i don't think that he is a bad writer, he's just trying to make top selling and controversial books ever since he returned to Marvel. That's a bit pathetic.

on bendis however, i like his writing when it's presented in a trade. his overall plotting is really strong and i'm not saying that he's only writing for trade, but he really needs to begin making single issues good on their own. the distinction between the issues in the trust arc of NA, for example, is non-existant except for the cliffhangers in the final pages. i always get the impression that he writes issues so far in advance and when he does, he plots a whole arc together with all the beats of the single issues and doesn't realise that the story is not rolling as fast as it should. i mean, NA 37 was only about avengers fighting the bad guys, and than doing some "finishing moves" in oversized panels. i think this is the biggest problem of MA and NA since the second arc. and please - please someone advise him to develop different voices for his main characters. i love the dialogues but it just sounds like each person talks in the same way (with the exception of catchphrases and such).

Posted by tusbat on 2008-09-04 07:59:25

Hmm...
Dan Coyle made some good points in that letter, but I don't agree with some of his stances.

Hey Brevoort, did you see the suggestions I posted the Winner's entry the other day? :)

Posted by Aziroth on 2008-09-04 09:24:39

I'm disappointed
I want to get into a real discussion of history, cannon, and mythology. I feel that arguing about which single issue, or story-arc, is terrible or good solely on the quality of that particular thing gets away from what is important to the return customers.

Lets draw an analogy to television shows. A single episode or theme carrying over a few episodes may lack in quality and could put a dent in viewship at a specific point in time. However, a truly great television show develops its fan base through identifiable characters and succeeds by maintaining the purity of those characters over time.

I believe the same true for comic books. Changing actors or eliminating characters hurts a television show because it disrupts the identifiable nature of the show with its viewers. There are always exceptions to this. I do not dispute this. Those characters that a viewer can identify with will ultimately progress and change over time, they have to. But the great characters retain their history throughout they fictional life, building upon who they were and making them who they become. Its the empty characters that abandon their past or dramatically alter their history to suit a new line of story telling.

No matter the quality of the new story telling this makes that character truly hallow and ultimately unlikable.

Consider these things when thinking about how the last 45 years of the Amazing Spider-man will connect to the next 45.

Make mine again.

Posted by coolhanddave on 2008-09-04 12:08:56

What the heck?!
I agree that Loeb is a horrible writer, but the art, especially by Ed M is fantastic. That's why I buy Hulk, I love the art.

But Bendis freaking rules!!! The Collective was a great story, no question. I don't care if it's popular to hate it online, the collective was great and necessary/ It was a big story, and that's what I wanted.

But...

Khoi Pham's art looks horrible! I'm sorry to say it, but it's true. It's sad that one of Marvel's best and most important books has one of the company's worst artist. This book has gone way down in art since the days of Frank Cho.

If this was with a better artist, people would have liked it more. The writing was great as usual. But the art is just failing. This book needs a better artist. Even John Romita Jr. who filled in for an issue was much better than this.

I don't mean to complain so much, but I just wish this awesome book had an awesome artist. We've had people like David Finch, Steve Mcniven, Mike Deodato, LF Yu, Frank Cho, Mark Bagley, etc. And now, Khoi Pham?!?! How does he get on Avengers?

Tom, if you can do anything, PLEASE get another artist on MA, one of my favorite books!!!

ASM 545 ruled, OMD was one of the best Spidey stories you could ever read. Extremely interesting ideas, awesome writing, incredible art.

And Geoff Johns...I don't care about DC! Who cares?!

Posted by pineappleprotein on 2008-09-04 12:12:37

uh...
Tom...I mean , Mr Breevort...
did you notice that you're ...avoiding, yes, avoiding some thematics,specifical discussion's propositions for the benefit of ......others...discussions.
do we have to deduce that you think already having replied to them, or that you consider them as non important...

Posted by bulgarianyogurt on 2008-09-04 14:42:58

Again, I must ask; Tom, you're not seriously trying to make the argument that sales = quality, are you? Are you really prepared to say that all the latest chart-topping pop music are classic compositions? That every summer blockbuster is a cinematic masterpiece? You know better. You know that crap often sells, and you know that the company you work for is no exception to the rule. Ergo, some of these recent comics that you are defending out of political necessity are, in fact, bad comics.

Posted by CylverSaber on 2008-09-04 18:46:01

I remember
That fight in Peter Parker: Spider-man, drawn by Humberto Ramos, masks were off, there was good banter. They got down to the history of their hatred with a twisted father-son dynamic.

That was pretty sweet.

And now it never happened.

Posted by coolhanddave on 2008-09-04 19:33:01

What does Osborn Think?
That we can wave a magic wand and everyone will forget who he really is?

Right cause that'd be...crazy

Posted by coolhanddave on 2008-09-04 19:37:01

What does coolhanddave think?
coolhanddave,
You do realize that over the years Norman Osborn has forgotten that Peter was Spider-Man a number of times? And, SURPRISE, all the stories that took place BEFORE those times still happened.

Posted by harveytherabbit on 2008-09-04 20:45:54

worst of worst
Tom Brevoort is curious as to how books by Loeb & others sale well when so many hate them. I dislike the new Hulk & ultimates as well. I hate the Amazing Spiderman books. I buy them all because I want to know what is going on in the entire Marvel Universe. I buy at least 40-50 books a month. If something is referenced in one title, then I know what is being referenced by reading all titles. I don't purchase for their quality of story. i buy just to have a complete view of the Marvel Universe. Sometimes the view is not so good.

Posted by timothy69 on 2008-09-04 22:46:13

Hey folks. There's a difference between being critical and being rude...

Posted by Thomas More on 2008-09-04 23:53:49

My only beef with Bendis is...
He whacked Alpha Flight!

Please Tom, tell me why Alpha Flight had to die?

Posted by DRock1 on 2008-09-05 01:27:34

simple as supply and demand ( a marvel book e
you have to create a need : the possibility that a fan-favourite character interact into a specifical context with another fan-favourite character ( I'm not talking about sub-plots, but sometimes this is trough this. ) you can spent FIVE OR SIX MONTHS speculating over the need you created. This, and the 'new-reader-friendly policy', wich means re-introducing the characters at every issue ( then without these intoductions, of course the books would look like a little empty, and a need of renewals higher ) and you can see what you got in your favourite monthly book.
It had been pointed that B.M Bendis was writting too in regard of a trade, but that ain't really defective, we just wish as readers, that the books we are reading are written like stories.
Thank you very much.

Posted by notapotatoe on 2008-09-05 08:28:14

sorry : 'simple as supply and demand ( a marvel book express )

Posted by notapotatoe on 2008-09-05 08:28:51

to Thomas More :
I agree. The world is full of nuanciations.
By example, there's a difference between being deaf and acting like you were deaf, and this is the amount of money you can make with.
And what is for you the difference between honesty and intellectual honesty ?

Posted by notapotatoe on 2008-09-05 09:40:09

Alright, time to be serious...
...it's probably already been said, but I'll say it and that should simplify things.

A big name will always sell, no matter what the quality is. The examples of Hulk and Thor will always sell fairly well even if it's total garbage because it's Hulk! It's Thor! It's big names comic readers flock to. That won't change. Bad issues will only show as hiccups in sales.

And why not? After all, Spiderman is still selling, just not as good as it used to.

And it's not restricted to comics. Every Harry Potter book sells well, even if a couple are not so good. Take a sports team like the Toronto Maple Leafs or the New York Yankees. They will always fill their stadiums (or at least close) even when they have the worst seasons of their franchise's histories.

So you see, it's all in the name of the franchise.

Just don't push it. There's a breaking point where writers and artists get so bad that they even kill a good franchise. You could say that with Hulk Marvel is pushing that line, and with Spidey they pushed it hard. So never think that just because it's a franchise you can just put any story into it.

Posted by DRock1 on 2008-09-05 11:49:27

sorry (2)
it's about my first post ' a marvel book express', I don't like self -referenciating, I was talking about Loeb on Hulk (DRock1 just finished the thing ) and not answering about the question 'why Alpha Flight had to die ? ',but I could, I'have an actually one ideas or two about it and I would be glad to share it with you, and that with still the same pleasure.

Posted by notapotatoe on 2008-09-05 12:30:05

Carol and Hal meeting as kids.
It was not a johns idea. It has been always been part of the GL origin.

Posted by freyes2000 on 2008-09-05 14:37:14

Everything related to BND/OMD is CRAP!
BND killed Spider-Man. It pissed off fans so much that over half of us are GONE!

Marvel - wake up and GET RID OF THIS CRAP! Fans hate OMD/BND! We hate it! And we're not buying it!

Posted by HiddenVorlon on 2008-09-06 01:11:47

Array

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About this blog:
Ramblings and musings from the mind of Tom Brevoort. "It won’t be clean. It won’t be fun. It mostly won’t be coherent."

About the author:
Tom Brevoort is Executive Editor for Marvel Comics, and oversees such titles as New Avengers, Civil War, and Fantastic Four.


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